Talking About Stuttering Stigma and Amanda Mammana’s America’s Got Talent Audition

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

Hi I'm Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters Welcome to proud stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. one conversation at a time Welcome to Proud Stutter. 

Today I have a special bonus episode talking about the America's Got Talent audition, where Amanda Mammana, a woman who stutters, sings a song she wrote herself. The video has over 4 million views on YouTube. Here to join me in talking about the audition is Courtney Margulis, a person who stutters and a speech language pathologist. She is starting a Ph. D program at NYU this fall researching social cognitive influences on stuttering. Courtney recently wrote a blog post about the audition and the different ways it perpetuates stigma. We're going to dig into her letter and talk about action steps that we all can take as a stuttering community and our allies can take as well. 

Also joining me is MarC Winsky, a professional actor, singer, stuttering coach and Social Media Creator with 400,000 followers, be sure to follow him on Tik Tok. He is a superstar on there. His focus is around equity, stuttering and disability representation. Welcome to the show, Mark. And Courtney, so glad you are joining us for this timely convo. My experience watching that audition was so I couldn't put into words what I was feeling because on one hand, I was like, Wow, I'm so excited that stuttering is getting such a big platform. But I also have felt like a little uncomfortable watching it. And I couldn't exactly figure out why like I couldn't put words to it. So it's Courtney, when you wrote your letter, I was just like that. That's what I was feeling like you put words to exactly what I was feeling watching that audition. So it would be great if you can talk about your letter a little bit, and what made you want to write it.

Courtney Margulis:

I had like similar thoughts in the sense of, I was actually really happy to see a person who stutters on national TV, and a person that is stuttering openly. And I would say also, you know, she was struggling openly. And what I mean by that is that, you know, there were a fair amount of stuttering moments. And it was really cool to, to watch that and see somebody who talks like me and sounds like me, and that was good. And I just want to kind of preface this with my, my thoughts about this do not at all, reflect Amanda's singing or songwriting or you know, her as a person. I wrote this article because I felt that I, I too, felt this discomfort. And I found myself kind of coming back to these four main problems that I had I had with the video that was being very widely shared and praised amongst this stuttering community and the general public. So in this article, I outline for kind of things that made me uncomfortable, and the first one is that the video is titled singer with speech impediment moves the judges to tears. I did not like that the term speech impediment was used. I didn't think that it was necessary and And the second point being that singing and speaking are two totally different tasks. And I felt like it really didn't make sense that they were so blown away by the fact that she could sing fluently when she couldn't speak fluently. The third being the plethora of micro aggressions that I both heard in the video. And I read in the comment section on YouTube. And then the fourth being just my concern about how stuttering is portrayed in the media, which Mark can speak to, I felt like, it was very much consistent with with a term called inspiration porn. So my, my whole theme, and the reason that I wrote this was that I wanted to help stuttering become normalized, something that people just have, like, having brown hair or, or being taught, right. And something that Mark said to me, which is reflected in the title, is, it felt like you're praising the stigma? 

Maya:

Thank you. Yeah. What you had said about the inspiration of porn, like, I think that's what made me the most uncomfortable is that they were like, it's that harmful? narrative around just because someone with a disability does a task, like it's such a big deal. And it's like, that just makes me it just it did not make me feel good as especially as someone who who stutters. And so you ended the article so beautifully by saying it's time to normalize stuttering Instead of praising the stigma. And, and Mark, I know you have been responding to pop culture moments and bringing up stuttering as it relates to media. And so I kind of just wanted to get your perspective here, too.

Marc Winski:

Yeah, I think what's so so neat that Courtney brought up is the first first in his show, feeling that a lot of people who stutter had these reality shows. It don't get me started, these reality shows just thrive off of this, like that's what they do to gain audience. I know, when this first clip came out, I got so many messages, saying, well, here we go again, another stigma of how the the, quote, overcome narrative about stuttering is, is being shown through media and, and it wasn't about her singing. She's got a beautiful voice and share her song was beautifully written. But what was being praised was how fluid she was when, when she sang, the producers kind of created this, this tale about that.

Maya:

Yeah, that's a really good point. It's like, and I honestly didn't even think of of that until you just said it. It's almost like when she sings, it's beautiful. And then when she doesn't sing, it's like, ooh, and, and so I think that's why it's just like, even as I'm talking to both of you right now, I feel like I'm still processing like this moments, because it's so public. And so I think that the more we can really peel apart the layers of of this moment, because if we don't, it's just going to keep happening, and it's going to keep spreading harmful narratives around stuttering.

Marc:

Exactly, aye. Aye. Aye. Aye, sir. Friend of mine, talk with me about this, and also with Courtney's blog post letter, he was saying that, oh, well, that's just what reality TV does. You can't take down this a conglomerate that is that is thriving off of these narratives. Unless you go and become a producer on the inside and take down this stereotype from the inside because quote, that's, that's, that's just the way it is. And I got so angry. I just like, I understand that's the way it is right now. But like, Can't someone stop, stop, stop being a dick and do something? Like say that this isn't right. People don't know how hurtful it is because they're overshadowed by the, the, the praise and the inspiration and and not the deep seated micro aggression that's involved. Yes,

Courtney:

Yes. I completely agree with that. And I'm sitting here nodding my head like yes, yes. Um, my something that you said earlier, really stuck with me. You said, I didn't feel good. When I watched that. We, as people who stutter don't feel good. But yet the whole purpose of that clip was to help people who don't stutter feel good. To me, that makes no sense. Right? If the population that they're trying to portray doesn't feel good about this, I think that people just don't know, people don't understand the harmful undertones in it. And I mean, I've had conversations with friends and, and family as well, like Mark was talking about, and they just don't really get it or they're just like, Well, yeah, that's just how it is, you know, that's what Sol's or Well, you know, this really made me feel in inspired, but we are not inspired. 

Marc:

There's a way to inspire without putting down. I mean, that's the most challenging part, right? Like, yeah, it could be inspiring that, that, that, that she went on this reality show where a lot of people don't go and spoke her truth. But that wasn't what was being told, right? Like, that wasn't the inspiration. The inspiration was, Wow, she she she stutters so much. And then she doesn't stutter when she saves. And that was the the narrative being told. And then people in comments, were saying, well, well, she never said stutter. So she, she said speech impediment. I'm like, no, she also said that she she stutters. And then that there was this like, debate. I, I spent too much time looking at comments sometimes. And it's such a rabbit hole, right? But also, it's important, as a community and as an ally of people who stutter to is to talk about it. And, and most, maybe, maybe educate some people along along the way, because we've all got a computer and we all I'm gonna say, we all go to the bathroom and have our phones. So don't don't don't say that you don't because

Courtney:

I don't mark. 

Marc: 

All right, of course. 

Courtney:

Yeah. And I just want to comment on the comments. There was there. It was, like the Pandora's box that opened up when this was posted is just it was just it. It was a lot. And I found myself getting really sad with some of the comments such as people saying, Oh, just sing for the rest of your life. Don't. Don't talk. Oh my god. Or you know, wow. It is absolutely remarkable how she is. escaped her impediment when she said, right, that perpetuates the stigma that tells us as a people who stutter, it's not okay to stutter, that we should avoid it. And that that is that is n what leads to more stuttering because people tend to stutter more when they're trying not to stutter, or, and they think that it's not okay to stutter. 

Marc:

And I think the average population doesn't know that. I think that's I think, throughout this whole thing like, yeah, it is, it is a really cool thing. The brain is incredible. There is so much to the brain that is absolutely extraordinary. And why people don't don't stutter, when they sing, is a really cool thing. I like calling it a really cool party trick, right? People say, Well, maybe, maybe, maybe it's because they, they know the song and a practice the song alive. And I'm like, No, it happens with karaoke as well. When you don't know the song. It's a cool thing. But saying things like, oh, just sing it. If you get in a block and and stutter just just just sing it. There are even some, some, some speech therapists who teach their clients this to sing their words. And it's, it is so frustrating. So what can we do? Like, Well, what What's a good call to action here? Because it's, it's so needed, like, we're all amped up about this. And if it stays in our little, little pod, then what's going to change? 

Courtney:

Yep. So true. 

Marc:

Accord is started it, Courtney Thank you, thank you, I No, seriously, I reached out to Courtney and said, Courtney, you need to do this. And I'm so so glad that you did.

Courtney:

I mean, the the the thing that really got me frustrated and kind of ramped up about this was, you know, just how, how much praise and how much positivity and shares and likes that, that this video was receiving? And every share and like, to me felt like, we were just perpetuating the stigma. And so I felt that there was a need to point this out. And what was really interesting was the, the amount of people that said, Well, yeah, you know, this really didn't sit right with me, but I, but I didn't know why. Or yeah, you know, I just didn't I, I just kind of felt uncomfortable when I watched it, and some of these people were my were my co workers who are SLPs but don't stutter themselves. And I thought that was interesting. But what I will say and I think I think it's really important that we talk about this because I do regret not mentioning this in my post, um, the differences in feedback and comments that I got on this post of people who are sort of involved in this stuttering community. So people who are you know, probably at a good place are, you know, a accepting have met, other people who stutter have attended support groups. Those people had a very different reaction than people on other social media sites like Reddit, who almost almost sort of laughed at me for calling stuttering Beautiful. They felt like how can it be beautiful when I am stuck on every word when I am struggling so much. And what I say to that is, stuttering is a very individual experience and that you know how one person who stutters, feels is not always how another person who's who stutters, feels. For some people, it is this beast, it's this monster, it it is this something that is really bad that they want to get rid of. But my response to that is so much of that so much of how people who stutter, think and feel and even behave is influenced by how society responds, when they're stuttering, how people talk about stuttering, what language they use, how people kind of respond verbally, and non verbally when they are, and in a block, what their parents tell them what their friends tell them, how their peers in school, were react to them. And I'm not saying there's a one to one correlation that, you know, if we change society, then you know, all of a sudden everybody will be accepting and okay with, with a stuttering openly, but I think it's a significant part that is so important. Like what Mark said, I don't think people really understand this, because I think that stuttering is so complex, it does not make any sense. It is not something that happens all the time, it is something that is heavily influenced by, by, by psychological factors. So I think it's so important to understand that everybody has a different experience in response to this. It was, it was not all good. In terms of how people responded to my post, I think, at this point, people are seeing any sort of stuttering in the media as positive, like, oh, wow, adultery, you know,

Maya:

yeah, and I'm sure we're not the only ones like you guys have said you've had other conversations with people who stutter. But for those that aren't, as you know, far along in their stuttering journey with coming to terms with it, I'm sure watching that, like, there's some psychological things that are happening that they can't really put language to that we're kind of discussing here. So I think the more of putting language and just talking openly about our feelings, and how how these things impact us is just going to help more people as well, because it's just hitting such a strong chord in me.

Courtney:

It seems like stuttering is one of the few disabilities or differences how ever you want to refer to it, that we're so comfortable doing this. I just feel like if it was anything else, people would be like, Oh, that's not right. Like, you know, like I mentioned in my posts, you know, if if they titled the video, you know, short, short singer, moves the judges to tears or singer in a wheelchair, moves the judges to tears. It's not right to call out this part of the person. That is, yes, it is a very obvious part of us. But I can think of a lot of other things that are quite obvious, that are not culturally appropriate to call out to put in a title of a YouTube video. 

Marc:

Yeah, well, that's, that's what clickbait kind of is, hmm. And it and in this case, it worked. But to what extent like they knew what they were doing when they titled it, you know, they knew what they were doing with with person with speech impediment brings the judges to tears.

Maya:

Yeah, they totally knew what they were doing when they titled that. And just going back to like, the, the, the feelings around my stutter. It's really like, I know this is kind of a cliche, it really is like peeling back the layers of an onion. I've like hidden my stutter for so long that there's still so much I'm exploring that is still in me like feelings wise. And so I feel like every conversation I have I kind of peel back another layer. Amazing. Yeah, so it's almost therapeutic to almost all it is. Yes, definitely. It is. Yeah. 

Marc:

Exactly, exactly. When we say, Yeah, everyone has a different experience, and everyone has a different life journey through stuttering. That may be true, absolutely. But also, so many of our experiences are the same. We we have, oh, I got chills because we are all connected through this. This stigma of shame and guilt and having people fill in our words for us and and being being fearful to go up and talk to a Starbucks employee about ordering the double Cream Frappuccino, caramel, extra extra whipped cream, quadruple shot, whatever it is, and then just saying, coffee. Right. So as much as it is a different lived experience. It's so similar to where we all have the same sort of of lived experience, which then makes me think, oh, maybe there's a way to change that damn stigma about how people are talking about it. And relating to it.

Maya:

Yeah, so let's, let's go there. Let's, let's tell let's go to Actions. So. So I'll start because I had an experience last night where I was in a sea of strangers, it was like, this networking event. And I, I was like, Okay, I'm going to tell as many people as I can about stuttering, I was like my mission. I like told two people about stuttering and how I ever stutter. And they literally just had no idea what stuttering actually was, like, they, they thought it only happened when you were nervous. And so I gave them the whole spiel, and it felt really good. And so I um, so that's kind of my call to action for me is just to like, and I know not everyone is comfortable with doing that. But I feel like I've reached the point in my journey where that's just what I do now. And so I'm wondering, Mark, and Courtney, if you can talk about like what others can do to help reduce the stigma.

Marc:

Do that, talk. Talk really, because every time someone openly stutters when they might not want to, because of the stigma, that's another opportunity to get stuttering into the world, when you have the time to, to simply educate or teach somebody else whether it's 10 seconds, saying, Hey, I stutter sometimes thanks for being patient. You're not only helping yourself, but also millions of other people who experience stuttering because I guarantee I guarantee that the next time someone who stutters comes in contact with that person that you educated, you better be damn sure that they're going to remember it like they're going to remember that conversation because it doesn't happen very often.

Courtney:

Yeah, I've had so many just experiences of people being confused or not knowing what's going on or just like laughing. And when I tell people it's like, oh, wow, like I had No idea. And you know, people often feel bad and that that that's not my intention. But I think like Mark said, it is so important to keep that conversation open. Because truly people just don't know. And I think my, my experience has kind of been unique in a sense where I was very covert up until 21. I hit it. And I was about I had about an 80% success rate in the sense of, most people didn't know, there were people who were like, Huh, why did she always pause when she talks, but most people just had no idea because I just didn't talk, or I just passed as shy. Or, you know, in high school. I was the kid who was just stuck up. And like, I totally preferred that label, as opposed to stuttering. So I and and when it did stutter, I have always ever since I was two, I, I have always had silent blocks. And so I think for a long time, people just didn't know what that was. And it was easily interpreted as Oh, she she doesn't know what she's saying. Or she forgot. I will also add that and this is sort of my personal mission as of recently, um, I think a lot of the burden actually falls on language pathologists. The way that we talk about stuttering is not ideal, and the way that we track stuttering, the way that we phrase our goals, the way that we give home workout home, practice, practicing what, alright? Until we change that, it's going to be really hard because that that's what is getting put out to the clients, to the kids, to the families, to the schools, to the university programs. That's a lot of people. So we have to figure out some way and I am just so like, passionate about this, and I don't, I don't have an answer. But I hope that we can take small steps to help people understand to, to help professionals understand and know and feel comfortable talking about stuttering in a way that makes people who stutter feel good.

Marc:

That's a great idea. Help people who stutter feel good. That feels like the optimum goal, if I'm speaking correctly. Like, is that is is that not the whole point of, of therapy is to bring patches of joy throughout your life,

Courtney:

What's happening is that clients who stutter are feeling ashamed for not practicing enough for not reaching their goals, or even even if we are, you know, setting the right goals, are we setting them too high? Right? Like we're, you know, we're telling clients to go, you know, do a invitation at their school, you know, or like, you know, choose to raise their hand in class as opposed to not participating. And the client comes back and says, I did not do that, right. Because it's hard. It's hard and it takes time. And sometimes SLPs who don't stutter don't understand how hard it is. It's not just a simple goal. You know, go do this. It's really hard.

Maya:

Yeah, and, and I am just every time I meet a new SLP speech language pathologist that stutters I'm just like, Oh, my God, gay. There's more. There's more of us, like out there. But, yeah, I think we've covered a lot of ground I think, as you can, as you all can hear, we could probably go on and on about this topic. But yeah, I think ending it there is is a great place to to stop. And I just want to thank you and Courtney and mark so much for being here. And I think this is going to really help the conversation around stuttering and hopefully make a difference and how pop culture portrays stuttering because we need to have more conversations like this.

Marc:

Yeah, I completely agree. Can we? Can we title it something like three people with speech impediment bringing the world to tears?

Maya:

Oh my gosh.

Marc:

With their, with their with their with their with their with their super inspiring podcast.

Maya:

And that's it for this episode of proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by a gusto, Denise and our artwork by Mara zekiel and Noah to calm. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www dot proud stutter.com And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast want to leave us a voicemail, check out our show notes for that the number number to call in more importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you